He built a $4B unicorn & crossed $100M ARR—here's why it took 10 years of 100-hour weeks. | Martin Basiri, Founder of Passage & Applyboard (SaaS North Keynote)

I interviewed Martin on the keynote stage at the SaaS North conference. Here is the audio version. Martin built Applyboard into a $4B unicorn doing $100M+ in ARR. He left and started a new startup called Passage— and raised a $40M seed round.

He talks about 100-hour weeks, hiring exceptional talent, why smaller teams can outperform—and why he decided to start all over again.

Why you should listen:

• Why great founders thrive in high-stress situations-- on "the edge of failure" as Martin calls it.
• How to make your first hire. 
• Why you need to go all-in and work crazy hours to build a unicorn.
• Why Martin thinks it's key to never give up, even in tough times, as cliche as it might sound.
• The importance of creating a positive environment to attract good people.

Keywords
entrepreneurship, education, immigration, impact, startup, Passage, ApplyBoard, perseverance, business model, founder journey

Timestamps
(00:00:00) Intro
(00:03:54) Getting Into Coding
(00:06:48) Accidentally Making Applyboard
(00:10:41) Starting startup #2
(00:17:19) Raising the Biggest Seed in Canada with Only 20 Employees
(00:20:07) If You Can't Outsmart Them, Outwork Them
(00:23:21) Getting the First Software Developer
(00:25:48) One Piece of Advice

Chapters

• 3:54 Getting Into Coding
• 6:48 Accidentally Making Applyboard
• 10:41 Starting Startup #2
• 17:19 Raising the Biggest Seed in Canada with Only 20 Employees
• 20:07 If You Can't Outsmart Them, Outwork Them
• 23:21 Getting the First Software Developer
• 25:48 One Piece of Advice

Transcript

Pablo Srugo (00:00)

So Martin is an absolute monster of a founder. When he immigrated to Canada from Iran, he literally barely spoke any English. And a few years later, he started an applied org to help other students come study abroad. That company is now doing well over a hundred million dollars top line and it's worth $4 billion. And just when that company had true real at scale success, Martin decided to leave and start all over again. And a couple of years ago, he started Passage, raised the largest seed round ever in Canada's history, a $40 million seed round that helps the smartest people from all around the world study abroad regardless of where they're coming from, regardless of what resources they have. He's 100 % driven by impact and he's all in. This guy's still working literally from like 8 to 10 PM every single day. This is the interview that I did with him at the Saas North Conference. I thought I'd share it with all of you because he is 10 out of 10.

 Listen, if you don't want this show to like move up the rankings, you don't want it to get better guests, totally get it. You know what? Don't leave a review, just don't do it. Why would you? But if you want to help out, if you want better and better guests, if you want to help the show move up the rankings, then take literally five seconds and hit five stars. Thank you. Can everyone hear me? Woo! Let's make this happen.

So how you doing, man? 

Martin Basiri (1:14)

Doing well, how's your leg? 

Pablo Srugo (1:16)

My leg is, for those who can't see, tore my MCL four days ago playing soccer. So that's never fun. But here we are. Dude, so, let's get right into it. I mean, look. When I was thinking about this, I thought the number one thing I have to ask him is- you probably know, but before Passage, Martin started another company called ApplyBoard. And in 2018, you had, you had a way to sell the company. You would have made like a hundred million dollars. Not only did you say no, you stayed at ApplyBoard, you grew it. $4 billion company raised $300 million. And then you left and you're doing it again. Why would you do that? Why aren't you just, you know, on the beach somewhere?

Martin Basiri (1:58)

I don't like the beach. Like, it's so boring, life at the beach, you know?

Pablo Srugo (2:07)

I don't know why everyone's talking about it.

Martin Basiri (2:09)

Like when I go on vacation or something, I like to be more active or sitting on a beach, the whole concept or yacht life is not appeal-, or maybe when I get older it’ll change. I am the happiest when I'm at the edge of failure. When I'm doing something that is so hard that I'm in an extreme amount of stress that things are going to fail very soon. So I normally push myself to that edge and that's where I perform the best. i learn a lot. and I have an enormous amount of energy solving through uncertainties. So basically it's just like, That's where, you know how you hear some people are good times CEO, some people are bad times CEO. 

Pablo Srugo (2:57) 

Yeah, a war time. Yeah, that's right.

Martin Basiri (2:59)

Like I thrive in war.

Pablo Srugo (3:00)

But did you feel like ApplyBoard is getting easier or something? 

Martin Basiri (3:03)

No, it has so many different reasons- that was more an answer like why I'm not at the beach. Yeah. There's no war on the beach. It's like relaxing on the beach. So basically the companies I started, both of them, I'm lucky that it's kind of an extension of my personal life. So for those of you that don't know, like I'm a lucky human being, probably the luckiest in this room or maybe this country or maybe the whole world. I'm from Iran. I grew up in a lower middle class family and my parents were both educators and they knew the value of education and they did everything for us to provide for our education. And it started like inventing when I was 14 years old and I loved coding and circuit design and inventing new things. 

Pablo Srugo (3:52) 

How'd you get into coding at 14? 

Martin Basiri (3:54) 

My uncle, I started a computer shop at 13 and burning CDs for other people and burning like music, a, you know, copying, know, like not everyone has money for it. 

Pablo Srugo (4:10)

All I was going to say is that normal in Iran? I mean, it was normal here but maybe that’s- Yeah, yeah, 

Martin Basiri (4:14) 

yeah, so I was fixing my friend's windows. Then, you know, remember windows was all cracked windows. So they were going back and getting viruses. Windows was not good at that point. Yeah, the crack version. And then my uncle came from Canada to Iran and he said, let me show you something. And he showed me basic language and said, this is what computers are for, not just burning games and stuff. And by then I was already doing circuit design because my dad was an electrical engineer and he taught me everything. And then I got to introduce a computer as well. So now I was coding for macro control. 

Pablo Srugo (4:47) 

You’re how old?

Martin Basiri (4:48) 

 I was 14. Yeah. So it's a little later in my life. and basically since 14, then 

Pablo Srugo (4:54) 

old basically. you’re old Yeah?

Martin Basiri (4:57)

So basically, it's funny because like I technically have 22 years of experience. So I just I can do that nonstop and I don't get tired. to this day I’ll go home between 10 to 11 o'clock at night. When I walk home, I don't feel tired. I feel like, I wish we had another five hours in the day. So, okay, you know, this is like night. I have to sleep and then wake up in the morning again. It's just a- 

Pablo Srugo (5:30)

Was it always like that? Like when you started coding, when you were young, 14, 15, you were kind of all in from the beginning.

Martin Basiri (5:35)

Oh yeah, to the extent that I could because one of my eyes was not doing very well. My dad couple of times had to do the break the whole electricity of the home. I go to bed and I'm not kidding. Seriously. Like it was like, I had the time, how much time I can spend on the computer because my eye kept getting a higher number for my glasses till when it's, when it got fixed, then they were like, okay, now you can do whatever you want. But there was a time during high school that it kept getting worse. So they were very worried about it. So any minute I could be in front of a computer. That's why I didn't grow up to become a gamer or something. It's just like, that was the best thing I could do with a computer. Coding and also circuit design. I love electronics as well. And then Universal Waterloo changed my life by giving this Iranian kid with no money a full scholarship to come to Canada for my master's degree in engineering. And you have no idea how lucky I am that I got that because this education changed my life. And I was able to come out of it, I broke the cycle of poverty, with the standard of world war, the cycle of poverty. i was able to help my family to come out. was able to like-

Pablo Srugo (6:47)

You come here alone? 

Martin Basiri (6:48)

I came alone. And then I brought my brothers and I, you know, the rest of the family joined. And then- We have started helping other people to also come to Canada and then accidentally we made ApplyBoard a company to help us. 

Pablo Srugo (6:59) 

Just accidentally made a $4 billion company.

Martin Basiri (7:02)

 It became the largest technology- the largest immigration company on planet earth. 

Pablo Srugo (7:06)

That's crazy. Yeah.

Martin Basiri (7:07) 

To give you a sense, like 0.5 % of the population of Canada, we brought to Canada. Wow. Not the population of immigrants, but the population of Canada. All the students that we brought are producing more than 0.6 % of the GDP of this country. And this is at the start. Like if you give them five years, they become about 0.7 % of the GDP of this country. like, so it feels so good. And what was the problem that I had?-

Pablo Srugo (7:32)

Well, I was going to ask -, cause I think, you know, we're going to talk about product market fit, I think finding big problems is the first step. And I think that's the thing that stops so many people is finding the problem, How do you get into a ApplyBoard in the first place? Like what's that story? 

Martin Basiri (7:45) 

So basically I was an inventor. So I helped the students while I was at school to pay for fees and my brothers didn't have a scholarship. So life was hard. We were helping the students with their applications and they were paying us a little bit. And then after that, we all went about our life and I was an engineer in the US and I wanted to get back to inventing, but I didn't have money. So I said, why don't we make a website? to help international students, maybe one student a month to make a thousand dollars. So it's enough time to invent the next thing. And that became the invention. And then it started going well, then it was like, we should just spend time on it. And then my brother's joined and then there was his history. And then to be honest, at the start of it, it was just to do something and be fun and just be busy. Two or three years in the company, when the first group of students started to come to Canada and now we are talking to them as customers and they were like, they didn't say what a great website you have. They didn't say, I really like that feature. All my words was just thinking in general. They were like, man, you've changed our life. Like ApplyBoard changed our life. like as much as I wanted to change my life. It was like coming abroad and getting educated and now And then I kind of, my heart starts feeling for the mission of the company. it was like, yeah, it's cool. Like we are engineers and we have this feature and our loading time is only like a hundred milliseconds for a thousand universities. But also we are helping life. And then, helping people became bigger and bigger to the level that I became a more than 50%. To that side and less than 50 % to just building the company and stuff. And that was a time I just like said. There's nothing in life I can do more impactful to help people get educated because we believe education is a right, not a privilege. Like people, regardless of their gender, race, nationality, religion, or wealth of their parents, they should not be burdened to go to university or college. Everyone should have access to good quality education. In fact, poor people really need education to get out of the cycle of poverty. And I was always thinking. Okay, if you want to break the cycle, you really have to help the people who also don't have money. Because all the people we were helping were like-, I don't want to say like rich people, they were the families that could- 

Pablo Srugo (10:08)

This is late applyboard, this is what leads into Passage. right?

Martin Basiri (10:11)

 And I started thinking of why don't I sell some of my shares and just give a scholarship out the way that Waterloo gave us a scholarship. And then we were like, okay, but one time you give the scholarship and the money goes away. then it has to be sustainable. And then I did more research and I realized. The amount of philanthropy money in the world is very small and like, but the amount of money that is willing to get a return, but they also want to be social cause is a lot. we thought, why don't we make it like a low interest rate loans? 

Pablo Srugo (10:41)

so this is within ApplyBoards?

Martin Basiri (10:44)

 No, no, These are thoughts. I started a Passage last year and we said, there's two groups we want to help. One, very, very smart people who want to come to Canada and want to study things like nursing, different healthcare degrees, trades and STEM that generally-

Pablo Srugo (11:05) 

Things that we need here.

Martin Basiri (11:06)

 Right. That we really need here. And also I want to do something with the refugees and the way that foreign countries work with the refugees is extremely inefficient. There should be a better way. Like, neither the refugees are happy nor the countries are as people are happy that so much of taxpayers goes and is not wisely spent. There should be a better way. And so for that we started like Passage and we started like helping students. And we also started something that is the most meaningful work I ever done in my life. We started bringing girls from Afghanistan who just because of their gender. Just because of their gender, they get kicked out of the school. Can you believe that? Just because you're a woman, you get kicked out of the school. And they were like medical students and AI students and computer science students. We started providing financial access to them and they went to Pakistan and they get visa. And now the first group are in Canada. And I did a calculation. If the entire of the... Like if we scale this… And you have to listen to them. They speak better English than me. So the whole concept of you thinking about refugees, make it 10 times. amazing people. And if we do that, we can save Canadian taxpayers 0.15 % of GDP while being extremely humanitarian. And we solve our nursing issues. We solve our trades issues. bring people to like degrees that Canadians don't want to do or the people who have money and immigrate to Canada, they don't want to go to those. 

Pablo Srugo (12:41)

And what's the model? They're like loans that you make?

Martin Basiri (12:44) 

 Extremely low interest rates loans. And the reason is loan because you have to make a system sustainable because there's not enough money in the world that just wants to donate, especially for a cause like this. If you want to solve this global matter, we put it publicly, if you go to Passage.com, there's a timer that is 60 months.

Pablo Srugo (13:01) 

I saw that yeah and it's a big mission. the mission statement, you tell me what it is, but it's pretty... 

Martin Basiri (13:06)

So when we started Passage, we were like, we have to feel accountable, not to build another unicorn. Like life was so good to us. We have a responsibility to the world. And we were like, what if by 2030, we go after making a world that no human on planet earth, that they're the smartest, the top 1 % smart people don't get banned from studying in Canada or US or UK or Australia just because they don't have money. We want to solve that. So if you're the top 1%, if you have the grit, if you have the drive, just because your parents don't have money, you should not be banned. It should be a way for you to come. And that means like we have to give over $50 billion loan per year, a low interest rate loan. And if you're like, first we were thinking about it, it's going to take two decades. I was like, guys, like. This should not take me to 50s. 50s I have a K to 12. I want to solve K to 12. We have to like to do higher education before I'm 50s. So we thought, why don't we put it by 2030? And we were like, let's put it publicly with a timer on second. So we publicly fail if we don't achieve. So everyone knows that we failed. And when we started, I thought we had a 1 % chance of success to achieve this goal by 2030. It's only like about 15 months passed from that time. And I think we have a solid 10 % chance. Nice. 

Pablo Srugo (14:36)

That's a 10 % chance. 10x man. That's big. 

Martin Basiri (14:39)

Can you believe it for one second? Let me ask you this. Just imagine a world that even the poorest person in this planet Earth, if they really try, if they're the best, if they just have the drive, there is no barrier for them and they can be a software developer in Canada or become a nurse and make over $100,000 in two years. That's the world. Just think about how beautiful the world is going to be for our children. you know, we're the top people in the world. Don't have a money problem for their education to be able to like serve the community, serve the society. Because the world that we live in, like if you're the smartest girl in Afghanistan. 

Pablo Srugo (15:19) 

Yeah, there's not much you can do. 

Martin Basiri (15:21) 

You can't even go to work. I don't want my children to see that world. 

Pablo Srugo (15:23) 

I love that thesis. I guess my question to you is, how important has it been- I mean, one of the things that is clear to everybody, I think, is just the amount of passion and that amount of passion after going after a really big, hard to solve problem, right? How important has that been in your kind of entrepreneurial journey? Like, what does that do for you on the day to day? 

Martin Basiri (15:43) 

Yeah, like building ApplyBoard was hard. but also some of the things set us up for a successful life. So I'm not going to be homeless. Hopefully, 

Pablo Srugo (15:55) 

I don't think so. 

Martin Basiri (15:57) 

The success of my company is not going to make me homeless. So then my, my base is covered and the wealth for me is if my kid can have a piano class, cause I always wanted to have a music class when I grow up. So I was like, one day I will become so wealthy that my kids can have a piano class. Right. so I think my kid's going to have a piano class regardless of how big or how much I fail. So then my base is covered. So then I have to go for the highest of the highest of the highest, the hardest problem to solve. The Passage problem is it requires someone who understands technology, immigration and finance and have the capacity to be able to borrow money and people can trust. There are not that many, like if I don't do it, there are not that many human being can do it just because it's so hard. So if I don't do it, what else can I do in my life? You know-

Pablo Srugo (16:48) 

you’re not going to go to the beach. We know that.

Martin Basiri (16:51) 

I’m not going to the beach but also like what? Like building another unicorn. I already done that. So let's just do something that is so hard. Either I fail and everyone knows what worked and what didn't work. So the next entrepreneur can take it from where I left or I succeed and then the whole world changes and no poor person ever is going to say, I can't go to U of T or Waterloo or George Brown and become a nurse or software developer just because my parents don't have money.

Pablo Srugo (17:19)

Let me ask you this, and we were just talking kind of off stage. You raised a $40 million seed round for Passage, which is one of the biggest seed rounds, I think maybe ever in Canada. But you only have like 20 something employees, which was shocking to me because normally when you raise 40 million bucks, you hire a lot more than 20 people. What's your thinking there? for me, it just seems so smart, but why did you set it up that way? 

Martin Basiri (17:42)

Yeah. So the last two years of ApplyBoard, I learned a new operating model. And it was like, if I put the smartest people that are like ex founders or they, they, were like a founder type of people. And if I can give them enough room for having the authority and the, what they feel they own the problem. But if they're very smart, but at the same time, if you put enough hard problems, they do magic and it worked extremely well. I had a team called applyX. It worked extremely well. Like, and then the whole Passage, I'm building it with that mentality. So people ask me like a lot of investors are like, you haven't even touched the money that you raised. And I was always like so for two reasons, number one, we don't have to like, like applyboard was already like, I already know what it means to have 1500 employees, but, first we are building the foundation or rather build the foundations correctly. When we need it, we will grow. second is, the other reason is. We are a company that has a lot of risk, right? So if we can keep the burn as low as possible, then the chance of success for the company becomes higher. know, if the operation of the company is also the risk on top of the business model, on top of what happened to the immigration and everything, then there is a higher level of risk by becoming very scrappy. can succeed and all the credit go to the team because I think every one of them works as much as two or three people. Basically they're able to do magic with a small number of teammates. 

Pablo Srugo (19:23) 

Well, I think the idea of hiring- I've always talked about this with early stage. i think hiring former founders who failed or not is huge because they're self-starters, right? Like you just kind of give them a high level goal and you let them run. And I think those are the sort of people that early startups need. 

Martin Basiri (19:38)

Yeah. And we also understand each other's language.

Pablo Srugo (19:41) 

Yes. That's right. 

Martin Basiri (19:42) 

You know. You don't have to tell them to work hard. We are five days a week in the office, which is like, I still get questioned. Like people say, are you for real? It's unbelievable. After five years of COVID, the norm is not being enough. Sure. Not the other way. Not that we went back to normal. Yeah. So we went back to normal. It's fun. We serve dinner every day at seven o'clock and you know, it's fun.

Pablo Srugo (20:07) 

What's your work day like? Cause I know you're intense. i know you put a lot of time into this. Like how do you, how do you set it up? what's the work kind of? 

Martin Basiri (20:13) 

So around  8:30 I'm at work, you know, before that I spent time with my family, you know, I'm a father. So I spent time in the early morning at around like 10, 11 o'clock. I go back home 

Pablo Srugo (20:24) 

at night?

Martin Basiri (20:24) 

at night yeah. And the weekends, after I got married, it became a little easier. And after that know, because I try to not work one of the days of my weekend. And the Sunday I'll basically do a lot of things that are left, but not like 15 hours. 

Pablo Srugo (20:39)

So I'm doing the math. It is like what 80 hour, 80 hour work weeks?

Martin Basiri (20:41) 

Yeah.

Pablo Srugo (20:41) 

 Is that what you think you need to build a successful business?

Martin Basiri (20:43)

No, I need more. 

Pablo Srugo (20:44) 

You need more? 

Martin Basiri (20:45) 

Yeah. It's harder than I thought. It's as much as I went for hard, but I normally underestimate how hard things are. I'm just too optimistic. Yeah. I need to do more. 

Pablo Srugo (20:57)

You think that's BS then? Cause people start companies and they talk about, you know, remote and work, some amount of work-life balance and then you got people like you going in 80 hours wanting to do 100. Like you can't compete, right? If you don't do that. 

Martin Basiri (21:08)

Maybe they're smarter than me. At the end of the story, I can't change my IQ or EQ or the level of English I have. I needed to learn finance. You know, I can't change who I am. So maybe they can learn faster than me. For me, it worked extremely well. Working hard worked extremely well for me because I could. Like I was, I remember the first time I realized I'm not the smartest kid in class was when I was 14 years old and, at math, I went to these special kids, you know, in Iran, have these things that special kids that they, they're very genius and stuff. go and I went and, the first math quiz I got like 50%. And I have people in the class and they got a hundred percent. I immediately realized I'm not the smartest, but, from that age, I was like,  I have to outwork everyone because I'm not, can't outsmart them. That's my survival.

Pablo Srugo (22:06)

you know, people will say after eight hours that you don't get much done. You find you're productive those whole 14 hour days?

Martin Basiri (22:13) 

They say that?

Pablo Srugo (22:14)

 I've heard it. <laughs> 

I don't know who “they” is, but I've heard it. No comment

Martin Basiri (22:22)

Sleep has a big impact. I don't cut the sleep. I try to get seven to eight hours. Like workout is good. I  think the food has an impact.

Pablo Srugo (22:32)

 And what about talking about -

Martin Basiri (22:34)

I think I also hear people say about burnout. I think when you do a lot of work and you don't see progress, it feels hard, but when you see progress, you actually become addicted. It's addictive. It's actually very addictive. That's why I think, for every single entrepreneur you see, they definitely have a partner, like a home that they're all credit goes to them. And I think my wife really sacrificed a lot because I have that dopamine -. Pick up my phone at work. So kudos to her. Shout out to her actually. So can you actually clap for my wife? Clap for his wife. Thank you. So I think she would be very happy tonight.

Pablo Srugo (23:21)

Let me ask you this actually, hiring people is obviously a huge part of finding product market fit, having the right people on the bus. With Passage, I assume it's easier because you've had your success and all these sorts of things. But you told me a story about ApplyBoard when you were nobody back then. I mean, you were just a first time founder. How did you get your first software developer to work for you? 

Martin Basiri (23:41) 

actually he's here. 

Pablo Srugo (23:42) 

Oh really? 

Martin Basiri (23:43)

He has started another company. He's here. So basically the problem that we have was like, no one believed a marketplace for international students or something right now then will become market place, something for international students. 

Pablo Srugo (23:56) 

It was hard to fundraise everything. Like it was not well understood Yeah. 

Martin Basiri (23:58)

So the thing was like, we were talking and this person was working at IBM and had a life and they have the expenses and everything. I was like, keep talking for a couple of months. No, it was like, no, I'm going to do it part-time. I wanted to get the guy to be full-time because he's so good. I want him to like full-time on it. I don't think you can build a company part-time, you know? so I had an Audi TT that I bought for $7,000. It was a write off car I bought in the United States, but it was like a two door convertible. And you want to see that car. They thought that it's a 40-$50,000 car. So people didn't know. I bought it for $7,000. So I told the guys, what's your life expense? It's like a $2,500 bills. have to pay this and that . So like, listen, you see that car. If I can't pay your salary, I sell my car to you.

Pablo Srugo (24:52) 

 You wrote your car out.

Martin Basiri (34:54)

He probably thought it's a year's salary. It was just a three months salary at best. And I never like spent money on it, so probably they wouldn't even buy that 7,000.

Pablo Srugo (25:05)

 I like that story because it's a sign of the hustle. Like there's little things you have to do that ultimately make a big difference, like getting that person to work full time, just to do whatever it takes to get that person to come on your team. 

Martin Basiri (25:16)

The thing is this is true when you go after something that you like. there is a Persian poem about this. *recites persian poem* which means the universe, god whatever you believe, throws a rope on your neck and it takes you to where the destiny is. So I really believe in that. So I think this is my destiny to solve this problem. So whatever comes, comes, know, let it come.

Pablo Srugo (25:48)

 So let me ask you one final question. think, you've gone through the ApplyBoard journey, now the Passage one. If you had like one piece of advice for founders that you would want them to take home, like early stage zero to one founder that you've learned from all your time, like what might that be?

Martin Basiri (26:08) 

 I think: never give up. There are a lot of moments that I should have given up or like people in my team should have given up. There are a lot of moments like a very period, you know I didn’t have a home you know, there were periods where I was for a long time, I was sleeping on people's couches. and it was a master's from university of Waterloo with a degree, quit a hundred thousand dollar job. life was hard. I didn't have rich parents that send money for this as a backup or something. Maybe that's why I like to solve the financial problem. Maybe that's why I always raise more than what I need. Cause I didn't, never had the financial safety. I kind of think like life is too short to be scared, you know, like, sometimes I think like my parents, they raised me and they now can't be with me because like I'm in another country. So that's the minimum I can do to service all the hard work they put for us. is for me to at least believe in me. And if I want to tell them I believe in them, it doesn't matter how much other people say it's not possible. Normally people right now look at it and they respect the stuff. yeah, you build this, but this is after the fact. Of course, you never see the first couple of years when you try to pick up a phone and talk to VCs, no one talks to you. You talk to other people. I had a thick accent, like my English is better now. And you get laughed at, people think you’re crazy. To some extent that is right. But there are so many moments that you logically should give up. Building a startup is not the game of your brain, it's a game of your heart. So by not giving up, by believing in you, you can just keep going because otherwise it's so hard. But on the other side, when you get over that fear, when you start having fun with you, when you start patting your own shoulder, when you start standing in front of the mirror and say, I can do it. I'm better than others. I'm better than what others think I am. I can do this. I know I can do this. Then you become your own best friend. Then you start to like yourself. And I think the amount of positivity that happens to your life. And you know, when positivity happens in your life, you become like a magnet for good energy, for good people. Other people come to you because they want to help you. Because people are kind. Human beings are good people. you know, over 90 % of the people who I've seen in my life, they're good people. They want to help. They want to do something positive for you. So when you believe in you, other people come and help. For me, I think that's the key. Every time, and that's why I keep making the problem that I want to solve harder and bigger. Because every time I get comfortable, I feel that the magnet becomes smaller. And every time I'm hustling and I'm working harder, more and more good things happen to us. And I'm thankful for that. 

Pablo Srugo (29:21) 

Awesome. Well, Martin, thank you so much.

 So picture this. It's months from now, years from now, and one of your founder friends, a really close founder friend of yours, guess what? their startup went bankrupt. And it turns out if you had just shared the product market fit show with them, they would have learned everything they needed to, to find product market fit and to create a huge success. But instead their startup has completely failed. You have blood on your hands. Don't let that happen. You don't want to live like that. It is terrible. So do what you need to do. Tell them about the show, send it to them, put it on WhatsApp, put it on Slack, put it where you need to put it. Just make sure they know about it and they check it out.